adoptee, adoption, anger, birthmother, brainwashing, family, pain, rejection, reunion, Uncategorized

My Virtual Living Room

living room

I responded, honestly to a question posed on a prominent adoptive mother’s Blog…

My comment was not approved.   I was told this:

iwish — mine is not a business. It’s simply my space and I write there to clarify my own thinking and to engage respectfully with others. Typically, those who visit also want to clarify their own thinking and engage respectfully with others.

TAO was correct in her guess for my reasons for removing your comment. My guidelines say that I aim for discussions to shed more light than heat. It feels like with two of your comments, we were at cross purposes.

By the way, one of your comments is (and has been) approved. It was clear and concise and did not feel as much like a weapon as the others. We all get to decide what gets through and what doesn’t in our own space.

I contend that, if you ask a question, you can’t only accept the answers that you like.  And if you post a question, you are inviting me into your “virtual living room”.

This was my response.


I am an adoptee from the closed era, and it was bad.

I don’t think it’s any better now. There are terrible organizations out there like They exist to convince vulnerable women that they should give away their newborns, all so Gladney adoption agency can make money.

Open adoption seems like a special kind of torture to me. I cannot imagine watching my mother leave me over and over again. My heart would break every time.
Her actions would show me that she really did not want me, and that would be devastating.

I also do not understand the mentality of many adoptive parents. How can you be willing to take a newborn from their mothers arms, and then turn around and claim to love that baby? If you truly loved them, you would want the very best for them, and want to do everything in your power to keep that child with their mother. Anything less is cruel. Help the mother, but don’t take her child.

Adoption agencies still sell newborns. They have had to change their tactics, shame won’t work anymore. The easy money days are gone, they have to work to convince vulnerable women to give away their children, see, and It’s sheer madness how low these agencies will sink, just to keep their supply of infants from drying up.

So, is adoption better now? Not infant adoption, which is rarely needed. Women in crisis pregnancy need the crisis removed, not the newborn.

There are so many countries that are doing it better than we are. We need to end for profit adoption agencies. Take the money and coercion out of adoption. Let children keep their names, birth certificates and dignity. No one deserves to have their past erased, even if i’s not pretty.

I feel adoptee shamed, again.

Any and all comments will be posted.  I have an open living room policy.  I do not see this as my virtual living room, but as a window into my mind, that I chose to open.

I chose to blog, so the consequences, and opinions I get will not be censored, no matter how i feel about them.





27 thoughts on “My Virtual Living Room”

  1. A couple of things.

    First why is it always the responsibility of those looking into adoption to help expectant parents who aren’t sure whether they can raise their child? To me it’s not their responsibility just as it’s not the expectant parents responsibility to fix the childlessness of those looking into adoption.

    Second I’m sorry you felt shamed but knowing Lori I don’t think it was her intention. I don’t feel Lori was saying you were wrong for feeling the way you do but it’s how you go about saying it. I’ve rubbed people the wrong way many times with my approach in these forums. It’s really easy to do when you are talking about a sensitive subject that you have a passion for.

    And lastly I would ask what your intention was in replying to Lori’s post was it to state that you feel that Adoption isn’t any better today or was it to convince others that they should believe that or something else?

    1. Adoption begins with loss and most APS dont want to acknoledge that. Parents pick children like they are purchasing something from a catslogue. For domestic adoption, black children are cheaper. Adoption is a mone making industry that rarely considers the adoptee in the decision making process. Many birthparents are coerced into giving up their kid. Instead of buying the child, how about paps find a way to help mothers keep their children? Hmmm that is a thought. Wanting to parent is not a good enough reason to pluck a child from its roots, culture, language andcountry.

      1. Ok, that I understand about opposing them adopting. But the idea that they should help the mother parent is hypocritical when you are telling them that a mother doesn’t owe them a child.

      2. The idea behind infant adoption is supposed to be helping a child. If a PAP really wanted to help a child, they would help that child have the best, happiest trauma free life possible. Most times, that life would be with their own supported family, with their own supported mother.

        Of course, infant adoption is not really about helping children, it’s about helping adults buy children.

        So, no the PAPs have no responsibility towards helping a child that is not for sale, or helping a child stay within their own family.

        IMHO, the best thing PAPs can do for children, is not be PAPs at all!

      3. Ok then can you please tell people in the adoption community to stop with the “if they really want to help children they should help a mother keep her child”?

        There are many best things that can be done for children not adopting is lower on my list. Even though my wife and I aren’t adopting there are thousands of couples out there who will be adopting. In the big picture it makes no difference.

      4. You must think I’m pretty powerful! I don’t control anyone in the adoption community.
        People say that because PAPs are saying they want to help children, yet they hurt them, by taking them from their families. So people say, if you want to help kids, help their mothers keep them.

        It’s all a big show because PAPs don’t really want to help kids, they want to help themselves, but don’t like to admit it. So it goes, around and around.

      5. No, you don’t control other people’s actions but you can influence them by being a voice that brings a different message.

        PAPs don’t intentionally hurt children. They honestly believe they are helping give a child a better life. The way to connect with them is not by guilting them into enabling a mother but explaining how adoption impacts a child.

        It’s just as big a show on the anti adoption side who claim they also care about PAPs when in reality they don’t give a shit about them.

      6. At least you admit it. Most say that we’re sorry you can’t have children but can do other things. You are at least honest that you don’t give a shit.

  2. It is definitely not the responsibility of prospective adoptive parents to help vulnerable women keep their children. Prospective adoptive parents (PAPs), are looking for a child to buy. They are not looking to help children, or vulnerable women.

    However, once they realize that the newborns they want to buy do have families, and those families may actually love and want these children, then i wonder how they can continue with their plan, to buy a baby.

    Lori may not be as wonderful as she thinks she is. Maybe, just maybe there is a little bit of doubt that she really did the right thing when she bought her kids, and maybe she gets a little defensive when she hears an answer that does not ying yang her way.

    My intention in posting is pretty much always the same. To show the other side of infant adoption. The brutal, ugly side that society does not want shown.

    1. I don’t see PAPs as looking to “buy” a child. They are looking to become parents. It’s not as if they go to the baby store pay and get a baby. I know many who pay agencies fees but never ended up adopting.

      Not everyone can fuck and just pop out a kid the way you and others have. When you have gone through infertility you understand why people go to the lengths they do to become parents. Not that those methods should be condoned but it’s easy to block out anything that might tell a couple this isn’t the right situation to get into. Maybe just maybe if you tried to open up and actually listened to others who have been in that situation you’d better understand the reasons those people go to the lengths they do to become parents. The guilt shaming bullshit that you and others continue to use will continue to get you no where in your cause.

      Lori’s advocacy is for openness in adoption and not just contact but actual relationships if you read her book. She doesn’t advocate for or against infant adoption. When I was looking into adopting she didn’t try to pursuade me either way just to provide me with information and let me decide.

      There is a way to do what you intended to do (and I’ve actually seen you do it in other forums) without coming across as forcing your opinion down another’s throat.

      1. Yes, Paps want to become parents. Usually they try for their own, then resort to adoption. I do think agency led adoptions are child buying. Money is given,and the result is a human infant. I can’t see it any other way. When cash is given, it’s a purchase.

        I am fertile, and I’m glad. I met my first relative in the delivery room. It was wonderful! I liked it so much, I had 3 more. I don’t know what i would have done if I were infertile. I never had to face that issue.

        I have lived with an infertile woman my whole life. She adopted me. I understand the desire to have a child, I’m a victim of it.

        If anyone feels guilt and shame when they adopt a child, it’s not my doing. They feel those things because they know, deep down that there is something wrong with buying newborns.

        I can’t force my opinions on anybody. If you don’t like them, don’t read them.

        Lori is the consumer in the adoption transaction, I was the product. We see adoption from very different points of view.

      2. By your logic anyone who pays for services to become a parent is buying a baby. That would apply for anyone going through infertility treatments. So basically you are saying that anyone who is infertile who becomes a parent bought their child regardless of whether the child has a genetic connection to them.

        You may think you understand what infertility does to a person but it doesn’t show based upon your comments. Saying you understand it because your Adoptive Mother was infertile is like a racist saying they aren’t racist because they have friends of different races.

        It must be nice to have a child handed to you with little effort. Who knows maybe your children won’t be as lucky. I’d feel bad for them that they wouldn’t have support of their mom who would tell them they are buying a baby regardless of how they became a parent. Hopefully their in laws would be more supportive.

      3. No, by my logic anyone who buys the material to make a human bring is buying a human being. Yes, that includes buying sperm or egg. Even renting a womb, when the child is biologically created by 2 people, and gestated in another is wrong.

        I have no issue with fertility treatments. i see that as a medical procedure, and anyone is entitled to that.

        I know what infertility did to one person, my adoptive mother. She was willing to overlook a lot of things because of her lust and desire for a newborn. She tried for her own for 10 years, and I was always second choice. She claims to love me, but her words never felt sincere. If she loved me so, how could she live with what she had done to me?

        It is wonderful to have a child with little effort. I’m very lucky in that regard. It must be nice to grow up with your own family. I will never know what that is like. I never knew my mother as a young woman, and never met my grandparents.

        I would feel bad for my child if they can’t have a baby too. I would tell them they are buying a baby, if they adopt an infant or use donor conception, but I could not stop them. I would still love them, whatever choices they make, because they are my children. They have seen and lived with the pain that infant adoption has caused me. They watched the grandmother they barely know die, and know they have a grandfather out there who wants nothing to do with them. They have suffered too.

        Only the adopted know what it’s like to be adopted. Only the infertile know what it’s like to be infertile. That’s how life works. That’s why I don’t like books like Lori Holden’s. She is not, and can never speak for an adopted person. She does not know how her adopted children really feel. It took many years for me to even begin to face the truth about what happened to me as a newborn. It’s very hard to speak out. Our society sees infant adoption as a wonderful thing. Very few are open to hearing anything else, and they are very vocal about it.

        When I was a child, I was dependent on the very people who bought me. There was no way to speak against it. I didn’t even let those thoughts in, until I was much older. I used to cry for the baby, and what happened to her, not able to admit, to myself that the baby was me. My mind had to bend, just to survive. Not something that I would want to do to another person, especially one that I claim to love.

        The bottom line is, I don’t know what infertility feels like, and you don’t know what being adopted feels like. We can try and imagine, but everyone’s experience is unique. Being infertile seems terribly painful,and so is being adopted.

      4. Materials include drugs, IVF procedures and other items that infertility treatments involved to make a human being. Your logic can’t pick and choose what it chooses to recognize as buying a baby. I understand your objection to adoption. That makes sense to me but the idea of buying a baby is flawed.

        You may think you know what infertility did to your Adoptive Mother but your explanation shows you don’t. You have no idea as to the person she was prior to infertility. It goes way beyond lust and desire. It’s a disability that society doesn’t recognize that results in a childlessness society discriminates against.

        I’m sorry that she treated you the way she did. You deserved better than that as anyone does.

        You’re right I am lucky to have grown up with the family I did. I am extremely lucky to have the parents I do. I wouldn’t trade anything for it including the ability to have kids.

        Just as I thought your kids if infertile can not count on you for support they would need. Whether you agree with their choices or not you telling them they are buying a baby is not supportive. I’ll be honest in that I know my mom think my wife and I should have pursued the options we had to become parents but she’s never come out and said it. That’s support.

        I’m not sure if you read Lori’s book but it’s intended for PAPs and APs navigating an Open Adoption. It paints Open Adoption as extremely challenging. She is not trying to speak for Adoptees or even Birth Parents.

        You’re right about society in general seeing adoption as a wonderful thing. Before infertility despite having a close friend who is adopted and became a birth mother I knew very little about adoption.

        I wish adoptees had unconditional support from their parents that allowed them to speak about their feelings on adoption. That actually is something that Lori’s book advocates for creating a comfortable open environment for adoptees to speak. She’s not trying to speak for her kids but is trying to crest an environment for her kids to speak. But when you are passive aggressive in attacking APs you are making it hard to have that open dialogue. I know I’ve done that in your community and it’s resulted in a lot of people tuning me out which serves no one.

        I’m not trying to get into the pain Olympics of what is more difficult. You are right as to we don’t know what each of us has experienced and how it’s impacted us. To be honest I think my wife and I had it easy with infertility. We had a quick clear diagnosis and never had to go through any treatments. Yes, it still sucked that there was nothing that could be done but it could have been a lot worse.

  3. Of course i can pick and choose what my are opinions regarding donor assisted reproduction are! I do not support buying sperm, eggs or renting wombs. Anything else is OK by me.

    Whatever you think about me, is your opinion, and your right. believe what you will. I’m not going to try and explain myself anymore. Jump to any conclusions that you want, and have a great life!

    1. Ok I get that you are against third party reproduction and adoption. Based on what you’ve lived it makes sense that you would be. But you can’t say that is buying a baby while other infertility treatments aren’t buying a baby. All I’m saying is that you are going down a slippery slope with the whole “buying a baby” argument.

      I don’t know you so I don’t have an opinion on the person you are. Just because I disagree with a lot of your stances doesn’t mean I have the ability to form an opinion on you. The only thing I gather that you are someone who is hurting and your life has been deeply impacted by adoption. There has to be more to you than just that making it difficult to have an opinion on you as a person.

  4. I have recently chosen not to post comments but not because what they said offended me or made me uncomfortable but because they were platitudes that I’ve heard a gazillion times before and one simply because it was too painful. It was from an adoptee who claimed to have been happy to be adopted and had no interest in their birth family…if that’s really true then why did they feel the need to say that to a total stranger obviously grieving the loss of her child?

    1. Obviously they have issues. If they didn’t, they would not post a comment. It’s straight up denial.
      Life with an adoptive family might be great, i guess. i personally don’t see how anyone can get over losing their family. I don’t understand happy adoptees at all.
      I think they were trying to hurt their mother, and failing that, hurt another woman who gave up a child.

      Sad, but i can somewhat sympathize. Adoptees are told how great everything is from infancy, but what they feel is different. Some of us suppress those feelings so much, they turn into something else, a desperate desire to prove to the world that everything is great.

      Infant adoption does terrible things to people.

      1. Processing it later on, that’s what i concluded too. Interestingly enough, the comment was in response to a post where I was fretting about what adoption does to the mind and heart of a child.

    2. I’m so sorry that it triggered you and can understand why it did. When we are suffering and hear happy stories we think that we either did something wrong or that we are the reason we are suffering.

      Though it’s hard to believe it our stories are our own and can’t be compared to others. It takes a lot of work to get to the point where we believe it.

      Best wishes to you.

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